Alien Hip Hop

[seanstephensen]

can anyone tell me what patterns/rhythms/time signatures/what the heck is going on in the alien hip hop intro section before the 4/4 harmony part and after the drum intro? I feel like I can almost understand it but can't figure it out.

[noble savage]

Hi Sean, welcome to the forum!:)

The intro section of Alien Hip Hop is actually in 4/4.

As for the rhythm: there is a pattern to it. It repeats every 5 seconds.

[seanstephensen]

Hi Sean, welcome to the forum!:)

The intro section of Alien Hip Hop is actually in 4/4.

As for the rhythm: there is a pattern to it. It repeats every 5 seconds.


Yea I had figured out the 4/4, is the guitar also in 4/4? that's the main pattern I'm having trouble figuring out is the guitar

[noble savage]

Yes, the guitar is also in 4/4. I don't think I'll have time to do it tonight, but I'll write out the guitar rhythm. It's actually pretty easy.

[seanstephensen]

Yes, the guitar is also in 4/4. I don't think I'll have time to do it tonight, but I'll write out the guitar rhythm. It's actually pretty easy.

thanks, that'd be awesome. Have you seen a good thinking stone tab anywhere? I'm working on it tonight but I'm horrible at ear learning, I'm barely getting some of the first melody. I have the notes, just not the fills and stuff.

[moefunk]

Yea I had figured out the 4/4, is the guitar also in 4/4? that's the main pattern I'm having trouble figuring out is the guitar

Hi Sean, welcome to the forum!
It's probably the drums that throw you - just try to 'block' the drum patterns and focus your listening solely on the guitar. I'm sure you'll hear it then.

[seanstephensen]

Hi Sean, welcome to the forum!
It's probably the drums that throw you - just try to 'block' the drum patterns and focus your listening solely on the guitar. I'm sure you'll hear it then.


yea last night in bed I think I kind of figured it out, now just need to figure out the notes. It doesn't seem that the guitar is in 4/4 though relative to the drums

[grohm]

yea last night in bed I think I kind of figured it out,

hmm....i suppose you didn't take your guitar to bed, which leads me to the question on what "instrument" you tried to....um, let's just forget about that :D

[moefunk]

hmm....i suppose you didn't take your guitar to bed, which leads me to the question on what "instrument" you tried to....um, let's just forget about that :D

Ben, get your mind out of the gutter! Have you been sniffing Geska again? :p

[grohm]

Ben, get your mind out of the gutter! Have you been sniffing Geska again? :p


no, but i actually smell a bit like Geska today. I should have known that eating anything cheese-related, shortly before going to bed, is not a good idea :p

[seanstephensen]

hmm....i suppose you didn't take your guitar to bed, which leads me to the question on what "instrument" you tried to....um, let's just forget about that :D


LOL just listeninng to my ipod in bed figured it out in my head.

[seanstephensen]

Yes, the guitar is also in 4/4. I don't think I'll have time to do it tonight, but I'll write out the guitar rhythm. It's actually pretty easy.

written it out yet?

[noble savage]

Hey Sean, sorry for the delay. I haven't been at the computer much these past few days. I'll write it out later tonight. I can also include a slowed, isolated portion of the pattern - which may help more.

[noble savage]

I tried writing this out in tab form, but I couldn't get the timing right. So, I made a clean (Shitty sounding) recording of the pattern. Like I said, it's only a few seconds long, so listen and follow the pulse. Sorry again for the wait. I hope this helps!

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V2VDM27I

[seanstephensen]

I tried writing this out in tab form, but I couldn't get the timing right. So, I made a clean (Shitty sounding) recording of the pattern. Like I said, it's only a few seconds long, so listen and follow the pulse. Sorry again for the wait. I hope this helps!

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V2VDM27I

i have mac, wmas dont work. oh well

[frank]

My little suggestion:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=wma+to+mp3&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10
:)

[ando]

i have mac, wmas dont work. oh well
They work fine on my Mac. Download "Flip 4 Mac" it helps you to play heaps of Windows related formats on the Quicktime player.

[seanstephensen]

Ok So sorry that audio file didn't help at all. I've figured it out though. The section is in 6/4 and the guitar just plays the same simple rhythm as in the drum solo, only adding a B4 chord on the last note of each group. The reason it's tricky to understand this section at first is because rather than playing a beat where the quarter note defines the rhythm, virgil plays a beat on the dotted eighth note. In other words, it appears he is playing 4/4 on the dotted eighth note (hard to explain sorry) but thanks for all who tried to help me out with this.

[t0ccata]

It's called polyrhythm bro, but thanks for opening that can of worms. Nice to get some affirmation on the timing

[korgman]

It's polyrhythm indeed and the main riff is in 4/4. The riff comes up three times in two 4/4-bars (see the attached picture).
As a matter of fact the whole piece is in 4/4 (just keep counting it through), except for the last riff (starting at 5:05), which can be seen as a 10/4 or two times 4/4 and one time 2/4.

[t0ccata]

Thanx so much for writing that out korgman.... the semi-quaver triplet or sextuplet is the clue to thew whole rhythmical anomoly..... if you count the total of these over two bars it equals 48, or two bars of 24..... the guitar is clustered into groups of sixteen, counted 123,123,123,123,1234...... 3 phrases of this equals 48 as well, thus, providing a minim triplet effect or a 2/3 polyrhythm count..... i know i'm dribbling but the thing that makes this such an amazing track is that 48 is divisible by 10 numbers or 5 polyrhythm's of sort, which Virgil exploits throughout the track but especially in the bridge/drum solo.... good luck keeping your timing through that one with drummers, guitarists!!!

[Feltronc]

as virgil said in one of his videos: "it's all 4/4, very simple"

[korgman]

Well, I don't want to question the master himself, but it's only all in 4/4 if you count two beats per beat. Ok, hard to write down: If the snare hit is beat 2 (ca. 92 bpm), then it is like I mentioned before, all in 4/4 except for the last riff. If the snare hit is beat 3 (184 bpm), then it is all in 4/4. I honestly think though the latter one makes less sense...

PS: Of course the drum intro isn't in 4/4 either :D

[Virgilio]

Well, I don't want to question the master himself, but it's only all in 4/4 if you count two beats per beat. Ok, hard to write down: If the snare hit is beat 2 (ca. 92 bpm), then it is like I mentioned before, all in 4/4 except for the last riff. If the snare hit is beat 3 (184 bpm), then it is all in 4/4. I honestly think though the latter one makes less sense...

I kind of believe you're wrong. It's all in 4/4, no matter how you count it. It's actually thought as 4/4 in triplet feel...Meaning multiples of three notes are in between each beat. The hihat plays the quarter note almost every time and if you focus on the snare drum playing on 3, you'll soon realize what I'm talking about. On a first listening, any of this triplet feels patterns can give you the impression of being in an odd time signature -it's a very deceiving patter-, but if you carefully analyze it, you will notice that it loops itself every 16 beats, taking 4 measures to resolve itself and repeating 3 times in those 4 measures. In the chorus section, the triplet or swing feel goes away, and it's all in quarter feel or in a binary subdivision but with the same 180 quarter note tempo.

So, to clarify, the main riff is composed of 16 beats, so if this was a song in 4/4 with quarter feel/binary division it would fit perfectly in 1 bar -maybe a 16/8 bar if you wanna be extremely technical about it-. In triplet feel form you have a pattern that crosses over the main 4/4 measure 3 times before starting all over again in the 5th bar (as a 4/4 bar in triplet feel is composed by 12 8th triplet notes). The last part you mentioned is just another broken triplet patter, in 4/4. I don't actually understand how you counted it, although it seems you were counting 4/2 and not 4/4 (the snare hitting 2 and 4). In any case,there's absolutely no way you can interpret the last riff as 10/4 unless you somehow change the tempo in your head into something only you can understand as a rhythmic illusion.

It's really hard to explain considering I don't speak English very well, but I believe you got the idea. As Feltronc quoted Virgil, "it's all, ALL, 4/4, very simple".

[Virgilio]

Thanx so much for writing that out korgman.... the semi-quaver triplet or sextuplet is the clue to thew whole rhythmical anomoly..... if you count the total of these over two bars it equals 48, or two bars of 24..... the guitar is clustered into groups of sixteen, counted 123,123,123,123,1234...... 3 phrases of this equals 48 as well, thus, providing a minim triplet effect or a 2/3 polyrhythm count..... i know i'm dribbling but the thing that makes this such an amazing track is that 48 is divisible by 10 numbers or 5 polyrhythm's of sort, which Virgil exploits throughout the track but especially in the bridge/drum solo.... good luck keeping your timing through that one with drummers, guitarists!!!

I hope my last answer was understandable to you, also. And yes, Virgil subdivides -in the solo section- this 16 beat's pattern in groupings of 4, 8, 6, 3 and even 5 notes, giving the impression or creating the illusion of playing with the tempo, consequentially changing the time measure. It's amazing how he plays that drum pattern as an ostinato while soloing freely with the hands...

[t0ccata]

I wrote that under the assumption that it is indeed, in straight 4.
I've noticed everyone has their own way of communicating/understanding the rhythm or the polyrhythms, there in.
Definately the coolest beat i've heard in a while and the end riff makes me cream my pants everytime!

[Virgilio]

Yeah...it's pretty cool how you can subdivide a pattern into whatever...

It's polyrhythm indeed and the main riff is in 4/4. The riff comes up three times in two 4/4-bars (see the attached picture).
As a matter of fact the whole piece is in 4/4 (just keep counting it through), except for the last riff (starting at 5:05), which can be seen as a 10/4 or two times 4/4 and one time 2/4.

I can now see what you meant...The problem was that I was listening to the Quantum track, and you were listening the OTV version of it, the original, btw. So I was analyzing a different part of the song. Still, you're counting /2s. So there you have 2, 4/2 bars and a 2/2 =10/2.
It's actually, by the feel of it, 5, 4/4 bars. It's simpler that way.

[korgman]

Virgilio, I think you're absolutely right! It all seems very logical what you are saying. And indeed I was listening to the original version (which I much more prefer over the new one).
In my defense: I'm a guitarist and not a drummer, so that's just the way I counted it and how I would (and did) transcribe the song.
Regarding the way I was thinking: In my wobbled mind the last riff is in 10/4 or 2 x 4/4 and 1 x 2/4 because at 5:18 you can also hear the crash on every beat.

Ok, topic change since I brought this one up:
Which version of AHH do you guys prefer and for what reasons?
I especially like the tone and the guitar solo of the original one much better (Garsed's solo is cool though too). And it's a tad faster than the new one.

[ando]

Virgilio, I think you're absolutely right! It all seems very logical what you are saying. And indeed I was listening to the original version (which I much more prefer over the new one).
In my defense: I'm a guitarist and not a drummer, so that's just the way I counted it and how I would (and did) transcribe the song.
Regarding the way I was thinking: In my wobbled mind the last riff is in 10/4 or 2 x 4/4 and 1 x 2/4 because at 5:18 you can also hear the crash on every beat.

Ok, topic change since I brought this one up:
Which version of AHH do you guys prefer and for what reasons?
I especially like the tone and the guitar solo of the original one much better (Garsed's solo is cool though too). And it's a tad faster than the new one.

Original one is better to me, mostly because of the faster tempo and because the guitar's Wah effect in the chorus. I do like the fact that Derek's keys in the verses have a bit more of a trajectory to them. The original one has a shorter repetitive cycle.

As far as this debate goes, you can count however you like. It's all the same. Often guys in the same band count in entirely different ways in the same section. Guitar players don't need to count every polyrhythm a drummer plays. They need to play in the logical rhythm of the part they are playing. I always found the rhythm guitar of AHH very simple - so much so that I wouldn't even bother counting it. Just play it! Remember, you don't waste time counting most of what you play, so if you can play it successfully. Don't complicate it by trying to count. That's for computers, like Virgil, to do. I think Derek does this too. I think he just plays, doesn't count every bar. He just knows how the song goes.

[t0ccata]

Imo.... Quantum by a long shot.... more composed tempo, keys have more variety, Garsed's solo is beautiful and profound, chorus guitar has a more controlled vibrato and sounds less wanky (albeit, i think the chorus is a total cop-out compared to the rest of the track), and the ending is a tight as a nun's vag...

Ando - I think in regards to your don't complicate it comment, that's very true for jamming, but i think analysis is what enables to obviously understand and therefore, compose in a similar fashion..... sorry if that sounds a bit conceited

[ando]

Imo.... Quantum by a long shot.... more composed tempo, keys have more variety, Garsed's solo is beautiful and profound, chorus guitar has a more controlled vibrato and sounds less wanky (albeit, i think the chorus is a total cop-out compared to the rest of the track), and the ending is a tight as a nun's vag...

Ando - I think in regards to your don't complicate it comment, that's very true for jamming, but i think analysis is what enables to obviously understand and therefore, compose in a similar fashion..... sorry if that sounds a bit conceited

What I was saying was that if you can innately play something, you don't need to break it down further. I could easily write down the rhythm of AHH in whatever note values you like, but I wouldn't bother. I can hear clearly what is going on. That would be like transcribing Mary had a Little Lamb just to make sure I understood the full implications of it. Why bother?

There are some things I might write down for myself if they weren't clear, but if it is clear, there's no need. Several members have PM'd me to request that I transcribe a part or sketch out the chords for PX songs, and I have done so for them because it was useful for them to learn.

But you guys are arguing about interpretations of a rhythm and both are correct in their own self-contained way. You don't need to convince each other of which one is right in this case. If you each have a way to understand it, that's all you need.

I'm not against the study of music. I've got more years of that behind me than I care to remember. Two degrees, a scholarship to Europe etc. In the end, I don't really use it that much. I think I'm more or less the same musician I was before I did them. I think it affected my sensibilities only in subtle ways. In a way I'm quite proud of that. It means my musicianship is innate and not taught - which put you at the mercy of the instructors you get. Now, as a guitar teacher, I am careful not to tell people how to think. I try to guide and assist, but not preach on how to express themselves. I ask them what they want to be able to do, and I present them with options on how to do it. Of course, I'll state my preferred option, but if somebody can find their own way which has no downside, I'm happy for them to do that.

So that brings me full circle to the point at hand. You all have a way of understanding AHH. They're all ok. No need to dispute the method of counting a rhythm. I just happen to find the rhythm of AHH fairly obvious and have never thought to analyse it. And I've even played it before with a band just for fun. If I had to, I could explain what's going on, but it would be my version of what's happening, not somebody else's.

[t0ccata]

Touche' :)